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Thread: European Politics Thread

  1. #301

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by S.C. Amigo View Post
    Did Denmark also have a colonial empire there for a bit?
    Didn't have much, didn't leave much of a mark.
    Though they DO still have the Greenland natives situation. So they get the crappiest seats in the audience, like sitting behind a pillar near the bathrooms.

  2. #302
    Sweet Home Chicago Cyan D. Funk's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by S.C. Amigo View Post
    Did Denmark also have a colonial empire there for a bit?
    A very very bootleg colonial empire. Some podunk islands in the Caribbean, a port on the Gold Coast like everyone else did, a port in India like everyone else did, and the Nicobar Islands, where I'm pretty sure no Dane has ever actually set foot on.

  3. #303

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    This is ridiculous how americans have to bring up colonial empires to make themselves look cleaner

  4. #304
    21st Century Schizoid Man Johnny B. Decent's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    This is ridiculous how americans have to bring up colonial empires to make themselves look cleaner
    Oh, don't get me wrong, America has definetly fucked over well over a dozen countries during the Cold War.

    But Britain and France, among others, have been doing so well ahead of us.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    As for Lybia. I think that Sarkozy is the only one to really blame (Obama, Cameron and the others too, but not as much as Sarkozy). He just roped everyone else into it. But the French National Assembly never voted to take down Gadhaffi. That's one of the differences with the Iraq war. That's why I've said that Sarkozy "decided to kill Gadhaffi on his own". Polls showed that the French (62%) were okay about preventing the bloodbath that Gadhaffi had ordered. But the public opinion quickly dropped under 50% of approval 5months later when Sarkozy's intentions became even more un-clear. The president in France has too much power, it's not like in the UK or the US.
    Yeah, France's President can as far as I know pretty much order the military to do what he wants without parliamentary approval. No "Congress declares War", no "Authorization for the use of Military Force" after 9/11, no "War Powers Resolution".

    Not that this makes the US decision to intervene in Iraq in 2003 any better, but the French's President's power is really, really unchecked on that occasion.


    Carrot's still never gonna join the crew.

  6. #306

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    You don't have to repeat all that. I know what your big brain intelligentsia thinks.

    First off, it's preposterous to blame the Sykes-Picot agreement. The war didn't start because of this. It's just something americans like to tell themselves. They have a very zany way to write history. Their intelligentsia seems to have blacked out on the floor from 2003 to now.
    I never mentioned Sykes-Picot mate. Though no in fact it's not preposterous to blame colonialism for metric shitloads of problems in Asia, Latin America and especially especially Africa. And again Iraq is unstable because of the Iraq war, Syria is not.
    One of the main reasons as to why the war is ending now


    Neat, so along with having zero understanding of the Syrian War, you also think the war is ending for some reason when it isn't.

    is because ISIS isn't around anymore.


    ISIS didn't even exist when the Syrian War began, and have nothing intrinsic to do with the conflict at all. They were opportunistic buzzards who rose to take advantage of the pre-existing violence and chaos. Their destruction will not resolve anything that led to this conflict existing.
    You seem to be under the impression that the Syrian war is the ISIS War, which it isn't by any stretch of the imagination.
    Learn about conflicts that you are talking about thank you.

    And there are lots of evidences, like all over the place that the conflicts in Syria have been nourished by the mess (you know, that one huge mess created by the US) in Irak.
    One must wonder what the Syrian civil war would have looked like if their neighboring country on the east was Saddam Hussein's secular regime.


    Hmmmmm! Saddam the Sunni Arab champion of Iraq, extreme antagonist of Iran, and Kurd archenemy. Naw, can't imagine any ways he would have gotten involved in the Syrian war at all.

    Other thing here. When I say I blame Britons and United-Statesians for the Middle-East, I don't mean it symbolically like you blame Britain for Palestine for instance.


    Symbolically?? Hahaha fuck you. You REALLY don't get it do you.
    It isn't symbolic. The damage is real, the fires are still burning, people are still dying.
    People in those countries aren't fucking idiots you know. They're well aware of what the colonial powers did to them, and they damn sure won't forget anytime soon.

    I don't blame the Germans for the nazis for instance, because it happened 80years ago.


    This is it right here. Western Europe sits in it's clean nice modern rooms and wistfully recalls bygone ages of crimes, "nice that we are good now" they say.
    MEANWHILE: Back in reality, blood is still gushing freshly out of those "old" wounds.
    Oh also, Germany paid their price for that. France, the Brits, us? We just left those places and went home, so we could pat ourselves on the back for being good guys now, and contract some convenient feel-good amnesia.

    Hey riddle me this Batman, in Cyprus when I went to see my ethnically cleansed father in law's childhood neighborhood, sealed off behind huge barriers by the Turkish army, a product of violent and traumatic ethnic conflict that the Brits fanned the flames of before they left. Was that all in my imagination? Or just
    ~symbolic~?

    Also, you have many, many, many american-centrist opinions. You don't get to tell me anything at all about arrogance
    Now what do you think I'm doing here. Absolving the US of crime? No. I'm reminding you that you're in the shitter with us. If you can't bear to deal with that than the arrogance is yours.
    Look at this post you just made. The whole thing is flailing and wailing around trying to get the blood off your countries hands. NO NO NO, THAT'S YOUUUU GUYS. NOT US. WE'RE GOOOOOD.

    The president in France has too much power, it's not like in the UK or the US.
    lol

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    This is ridiculous how americans have to bring up colonial empires to make themselves look cleaner
    Right friends??? Right? Haha, get a load of these guys huh??
    *nervously elbows a very stone faced third world*

  7. #307

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyan D. Funk View Post
    A very very bootleg colonial empire. Some podunk islands in the Caribbean, a port on the Gold Coast like everyone else did, a port in India like everyone else did, and the Nicobar Islands, where I'm pretty sure no Dane has ever actually set foot on.
    Still more of an empire than what New Sweden amounted to.

  8. #308

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    Still more of an empire than what New Sweden amounted to.
    Honestly I feel like you guys should be like working concessions rather than in the audience the more I think about it.
    Like the dudes who walk around selling hot dogs and beer. So still a good view of the action, but you gotta do some work.
    Not sure if we should make the Finns work too or not. Like they didn't have anything like an empire ever, but I dunno if they really should get seats with all the victims of colonialism exactly? Maybe because of Russia, but they had such a cushy situation there.

    Ireland though, gotdamn, they definitely get a seat.

    Also I should have mentioned it, but I think most of Eastern Europe gets seats as well. Definitely anything former USSR or Balkan. Less sure about former Austria-Hungary places, Hungary for instance definitely doesn't get a seat for that, but maybe for the East Bloc days.

  9. #309

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by S.C. Amigo View Post
    Oh, don't get me wrong, America has definetly fucked over well over a dozen countries during the Cold War.

    But Britain and France, among others, have been doing so well ahead of us.
    Yeah, I've already heard all these arguments. The difference is that France and the UK were dealing with the end of their colonial empires. They're not fucking up all over the world now, and they've stopped after the 60's. But the US, well, it's very much unclear if they stopped that after the Cold War. The most crystal clear example is the Iraq war. But it's not the only thing. In 30years or so, when new archives will be declassified and when their dirty jobs will be revealed (if there is any, but there is obviously going to be a lot) then the US government will say that "this is the past, we don't do that anymore". Just like they're doing right now with the Cold War things

    The "colonial empires" is something we hear a lot as a counter-argument. But it was before the 60's, they were dealing with hundreds of years of stupidity. And honestly, it didn't fuck up all over the place. There were wars and friendly dictators maintained in power in those colonies/countries. But lots of them got their independencies peacefully

  10. #310

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Indeed the prominent West Euro powers did nothing during the Cold War aside from gallantly leave their colonies one by one (or be literally forced out of them through guerrilla campaigns or outright war, but whatever). There wasn't any kind of involvement in anti-communist campaigns and such.
    Nor do they maintain overpowering economic strangleholds on former colonies either.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    But lots of them got their independencies peacefully
    Famed peaceful legacies of France:
    *in Troy McClure voice*
    -Vietnam!
    -Laos!
    -Cambodia!
    -Algeria!
    -Morocco!
    -Ivory Coast!
    -Mali!
    -Burkina Faso!
    -Lebanon!
    -Syria!
    -Central African Republic!
    -Chad!
    -Niger!
    -Guinea!
    -Mauritania!

  11. #311

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Black Hole View Post
    Yeah, France's President can as far as I know pretty much order the military to do what he wants without parliamentary approval. No "Congress declares War", no "Authorization for the use of Military Force" after 9/11, no "War Powers Resolution".
    The French president can do whatever he wants with the military power. He can give weapons to whoever he wants and send the special forces wherever he wants, whenever he wants. But, if he wants to "declare war". Like, using the official army. He can do it, but the National Assembly has to vote 4months later if they want to pursue the war. Meaning that the president could decide to go on 3month wars every 3months if he wanted to.

    As for Sarkozy and Lybia. He exactly did that. And 4months later, François Fillion (PrimeMinister) gave a speech at the NationalAssembly, asking the deputies to maintain the war in order to make Gadhaffi "bend" (/plier) because it "wasn't enough to ensure the security of the Lybian people". The deputies gave their approval with a wide majority. Except that even if they give their approval 4months later to keep up the war, they still don't have any authority on the president after that vote. And what did Sarkozy do ? He killed Gadhaffi. It wasn't what he had the approval for.

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Indeed the prominent West Euro powers did nothing during the Cold War aside from gallantly leave their colonies one by one (or be literally forced out of them through guerrilla campaigns or outright war, but whatever). There wasn't any kind of involvement in anti-communist campaigns and such.
    Nor do they maintain overpowering economic strangleholds on former colonies either.
    yeh lol, that's literally what I've said. Do you have issues with your eyes ?
    And the virtues of the link between the Euro and CFA-franc are debatable

    Famed peaceful legacies of France:
    *in Troy McClure voice*
    -Vietnam!
    -Laos!
    -Cambodia!
    -Algeria!
    -Morocco!
    -Ivory Coast!
    -Mali!
    -Burkina Faso!
    -Lebanon!
    -Syria!
    -Central African Republic!
    -Chad!
    -Niger!
    -Guinea!
    -Mauritania!
    Why are you acting like you were contradicting anything here ? Bad strawman. The ArlongParkForum people are too smart to fall into this

  12. #312

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Honestly I feel like you guys should be like working concessions rather than in the audience the more I think about it.
    Like the dudes who walk around selling hot dogs and beer. So still a good view of the action, but you gotta do some work.
    Not sure if we should make the Finns work too or not. Like they didn't have anything like an empire ever, but I dunno if they really should get seats with all the victims of colonialism exactly? Maybe because of Russia, but they had such a cushy situation there.
    Give us a spiky seat in the bumbling oaf section of the colonialists. Y'know those guys who never had anything substansial but certainly not for lack of trying. Being inept at it doesn't make the attempt any less shit. Finlands pretty much a chew toy though, always had to die on someone else's battlefield. There's a reason those guys drink like fish

  13. #313

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    And again Iraq is unstable because of the Iraq war, Syria is not.
    This should stop right here. This is as bad as saying that Pétain isn't responsable for the Collaboration (with the nazis). And what, do you think there are giant walls at the frontier ?
    And this isn't "me" vs "tha amerikkans" here. This is your intelligentsia vs mine. But your master-race of monolinguals can't know that. Just get out of your echo-chamber

    Neat, so along with having zero understanding of the Syrian War, you also think the war is ending for some reason when it isn't.
    I haven't said a thing about Berlusconi either. That it's the third country responsable for that war. You know. Are you also gonna blame me for not having mentioned him sooner ?
    So many strawmans tho

    ISIS didn't even exist when the Syrian War began, and have nothing intrinsic to do with the conflict at all. They were opportunistic buzzards who rose to take advantage of the pre-existing violence and chaos. Their destruction will not resolve anything that led to this conflict existing.
    You seem to be under the impression that the Syrian war is the ISIS War, which it isn't by any stretch of the imagination.
    Learn about conflicts that you are talking about thank you.

    "The civil war in Syria has been nourished by the conflicts in Iraq"
    Get your head out of your ass and learn to read

    And yes, ISIS existed before the Syrian civil war started.

    Hmmmmm! Saddam the Sunni Arab champion of Iraq, extreme antagonist of Iran, and Kurd archenemy. Naw, can't imagine any ways he would have gotten involved in the Syrian war at all.

    Yeah, keep imagining what you can't know then

    Symbolically?? Hahaha fuck you. You REALLY don't get it do you.
    It isn't symbolic. The damage is real, the fires are still burning, people are still dying.
    People in those countries aren't fucking idiots you know. They're well aware of what the colonial powers did to them, and they damn sure won't forget anytime soon.

    What I've said is super clear. Symbolically means "not the country today". When I blame the US, I blame your current neighbors for instance who probably endorsed the war. Hell, most of the americans on this forum probably endorsed this war in 2003. Given that there are lots of people above 30.


    This is it right here. Western Europe sits in it's clean nice modern rooms and wistfully recalls bygone ages of crimes, "nice that we are good now" they say.
    MEANWHILE: Back in reality, blood is still gushing freshly out of those "old" wounds.
    Oh also, Germany paid their price for that. France, the Brits, us? We just left those places and went home, so we could pat ourselves on the back for being good guys now, and contract some convenient feel-good amnesia.
    You're a crazy person. This is typical of north-american liberals to blame each other for things that their country did hundreds of years ago. We don't do that here. We don't blame each other for the Shoah because it simply doesn't make any sense. The French of the 40's aren't the same people as the ones of today. This is simple logic. Can you get that through your head ?
    But tell us. What did you think about the Iraq war when you were a teenager ??

    Hey riddle me this Batman, in Cyprus when I went to see my ethnically cleansed father in law's childhood neighborhood, sealed off behind huge barriers by the Turkish army, a product of violent and traumatic ethnic conflict that the Brits fanned the flames of before they left. Was that all in my imagination? Or just ~symbolic~?
    yeah, keep acting like a super victim here. Do you blame the British people ? or do you blame the decisions taken by the British government in 1960 ? That's where lies the huge difference. Is it too hard to understand ? Or do you just want to "blame other countries TOO" just to make the US look nice and clean?

    Now what do you think I'm doing here. Absolving the US of crime? No. I'm reminding you that you're in the shitter with us. If you can't bear to deal with that than the arrogance is yours.
    Look at this post you just made. The whole thing is flailing and wailing around trying to get the blood off your countries hands. NO NO NO, THAT'S YOUUUU GUYS. NOT US. WE'RE GOOOOOD.
    You really didn't reply to anything. You even failed to understand basic logic.
    And I blame the French for having elected Sarkozy btw. I've said that many times. Even though he took all these decisions himself, it doesn't change that the French turned out to be super dumb by electing this guy in the first place. At least, they didn't do it twice. *Coughs* Dubyah
    I don't understand where I'm being hypocrite about the French government's crimes here.


    lol
    What "lol". Just read a book that hasn't been written by an american for once in your life
    Last edited by Nilitch; July 11th, 2018 at 02:50 PM.

  14. #314

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Dude, I'm sure that if you said any of this vitrol to any african you find on the streets they would knock your teeth out.

    Like your fucking country is built on the misery of who knows how many people, you didn't kill anybody, no one you know killed anybody, but still, you live in the house, eat the food, reap the education, enjoy your fucking working trains, and overpriced water, and healthcare, built on these people's lives.

    Own your fucking privilege.
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  15. #315

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    Dude, I'm sure that if you said any of this vitrol to any african you find on the streets they would knock your teeth out.

    Like your fucking country is built on the misery of who knows how many people, you didn't kill anybody, no one you know killed anybody, but still, you live in the house, eat the food, reap the education, enjoy your fucking working trains, and overpriced water, and healthcare, built on these people's lives.

    Own your fucking privilege.
    Hey i konw colonialism was bad, but this post is dumb. France will still have been rich even without colonies.

    and no one will "knock his teeth out" over some mild comments lol

  16. #316

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    lol yes in America lefties do own up to the fact that we live on good things built directly or indirectly by slavery (yes, even in the Northeast we benefitted from the trade generated by what Southern plantations were producing).
    And no, this is not a negative feature of American leftism.
    It's not taking literal personal blame for it, it's acknowledging both your own society for what it is built on (and continues benefitting from), and the still extremely real negative legacy of those old things on living breathing modern people. And that frankly there should be a role in it.
    When Mali was melting down a few years back, France got involved in peacekeeping efforts. What is that if not some responsibility being taken for tatters left behind by empire?

    --- Update From New Post Merge ---

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    Hey i konw colonialism was bad, but this post is dumb. France will still have been rich even without colonies.

    and no one will "knock his teeth out" over some mild comments lol
    Tunisians? Probably not. Your neighbors to the west? Muuuuch more likely!

    And dude, why do you think Western Europe built huge empires like they did? Empires of that sort were massive money making schemes as much as they were territorial competitions. The infrastructure of entire Sub-Saharan African countries was built up around things like mineral extraction, as in, minerals leaving the country.

    MaxterDexter is Venezuelan. Latin America is such a mess relative to Anglo America by and large part because those colonies were quite literally that. Huge mining/crop farms for Spain to plunder and extract right back to Spain. The status of the local area didn't matter relative to that driving purpose.

  17. #317

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by maxterdexter View Post
    Dude, I'm sure that if you said any of this vitrol to any african you find on the streets they would knock your teeth out.

    Like your fucking country is built on the misery of who knows how many people, you didn't kill anybody, no one you know killed anybody, but still, you live in the house, eat the food, reap the education, enjoy your fucking working trains, and overpriced water, and healthcare, built on these people's lives.

    Own your fucking privilege.
    You've reached peak stupidity with Frataro-boy here. We're exploring unknown territories now


    Especially given that I'm so far from being 100% pure French race and that the French fucked up over my ancestors territories too. But I'm not blaming my neighbor for something that the 4th Republic did 70years ago


    And why would anyone be mad at me if I tell them not to blame me but the French government of that time ?

  18. #318

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Gaimon View Post
    Hey i konw colonialism was bad, but this post is dumb. France will still have been rich even without colonies.

    and no one will "knock his teeth out" over some mild comments lol
    It's what I feel like doing when the spaniards rename the independency wars into whatever the politically correct name they decided for it that I can't remember or translate, or people talk about how what chavez did wasn't "true socialism".

    True, most european countries would have been rich without conolialism, not gigantic empires, but good enough livehood for them I'd guess. That doesn't excuse it, I feel like that makes it worse.

    Honestly, I'm more angry at the Marxist side of things, as it is what has screwed me over in my lifetime.
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  19. #319

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Monkey King View Post
    Tunisians? Probably not. Your neighbors to the west? Muuuuch more likely!
    yeah maybe if he insulted martyrs or actually defended colonialism as a good thing but i think most Algerians wouldn't beat a guy up over the comments made in this thread.

    And dude, why do you think Western Europe built huge empires like they did? Empires of that sort were massive money making schemes as much as they were territorial competitions. The infrastructure of entire Sub-Saharan African countries was built up around things like mineral extraction, as in, minerals leaving the country.

    MaxterDexter is Venezuelan. Latin America is such a mess relative to Anglo America by and large part because those colonies were quite literally that. Huge mining/crop farms for Spain to plunder and extract right back to Spain. The status of the local area didn't matter relative to that driving purpose.
    Just simply forcing them to open trade would have been much more efficient than the brutal colonialism that happened.
    and colonialism isn't necessary for development (look at Germany) and sometimes it actively hinders it (look at Spain).
    also slavery wasn't good for the economy either but that didn't stop anyone.

  20. #320

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Why are we even talking about all of this ? At first I was just saying that the UK and the US should welcome most of the refugees and MonkeyKing got mad because "the Iraq mess cannot have any consequences on the Syrian Civil war"
    This is literally what the French media and intellligentsia widely agree on. But it seems like americans are living in a huge echo-chamber

    It's really astonishing that no one seems to understand the difference between the Iraq war and (for instance) the war in Libya led by Sarkozy, in terms of blame and national responsibility
    Last edited by Nilitch; July 11th, 2018 at 04:19 PM.

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