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Thread: European Politics Thread

  1. #261

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    Not really. He's still way more popular than Hollande (26%) and Sarkozy (36%) were at the same time after their election (12-13 months)

  2. #262
    Discovered Stowaway Big Black Hole's Avatar
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    Yeah, Hollande's negative approval ratings were surely something special.


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  3. #263
    King of Little Sisters ~ Chrior's Avatar
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    At least Macron is staying true to his agenda. People knew what they were voting for. Hollande ran a social-democratic platform of "enough austerity, let's change how EU does things" and he got absolutely nothing done beyond being Germany's pawn. Disgraceful. No wonder the PS collapsed after his mandate. But I don't like the French electoral system in general, I'd much rather have Portugal, Spain, UK, or Germany's version of parliamentary rule with the president/king/queen as a figurehead. The French and American systems seem pretty flawed to me, in terms of realizing democracy and corresponding to voter's wishes and expectations. They lead mostly to a bipartisan final standoff, which brings stability but severely hampers voters' choices and renders parliament/congress essentially useless.

  4. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrior View Post
    At least Macron is staying true to his agenda. People knew what they were voting for. Hollande ran a social-democratic platform of "enough austerity, let's change how EU does things" and he got absolutely nothing done beyond being Germany's pawn.
    This will maybe make me an instant pariah in this thread, but I object (at least to some degree) to this description.

    Obviously your statements are all about the Euro crisis. The "Germanys pawn"-narrative has some problems, though. Maybe for some background one should remember that basically France seems to have extracted their support for German reunification for Germany giving up the Deutschmark and joining the currency union.

    https://voxeurop.eu/en/content/artic...on-we-get-euro

    The introduction of the euro was thus a rather French idea which Germany basically swallowed to retain good relations (no minimizing the benefits of that).

    Now, an important point that has often been made in Germany was the fact that the Treaty of Masstricht (which established the Eurozone) contained Article 125, which forbids one state of the Eurozone to "assume liability for the debts of other members of the Eurozone". Before the introduction of the Euro, German politicians made big promises that this would prevent Germany from having to financially assist other states in the Eurozone.

    Now fast forward to the Euro Crisis. There have been three so-called "Bailout programmes" to help recapitalize Greek banks (without that there would have been complete economic collapse). This raised eyebrows in Germany, since there were voices that this violated the spirit of the aforementioned article 125.

    So there are strong hints that France pressured Germany into adopting the Euro and Germany helped with the so-called "Bailout programs" despite their negative connotation with regards to what initially seemed to have been agreed by other Member states in the Maastricht Treaty... Doesn't seem that when it comes to the Euro crisis, everyone else is Germany's pawn, does it?

    On the other hand...
    Germany's export-oriented economy profits from the Euro and I freely admit that the austerity measures were forced upon other member states by Germany and caused needless suffering in places like Greece. Not a good visual for my country.

    In the end, there's this looming question that the whole thing with the common currency has been such a good idea. Before the Euro, when countries had their own currencies, they could change their exchange rate and for example devalue their currency to make them more competetive. Greece and Italy played that game all the time. Now all those countries are tied together in the Eurozone, have only one common exchange rate and no longer that option. Though dissolving the Eurozone is likely not a realistic option either. nevertheless, even if the hard austerity measures are lifted, there's the question if it wouldn't make more sense for some countries to leave the Eurozone and return to their own currency.

    Questing the introduction of the Euro places me far outside the mainstream here in Germany. Indeed, I have to be careful not to come close enough to the right-wing fringe. But I think that there are some reasonable arguments for questioning the supposed "wisdom" of this decision.

    PS: I admit, I'm a little obsessive about this issue, since I pay rather much attention to it as an Economics student.


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  5. #265
    King of Little Sisters ~ Chrior's Avatar
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    ^It's always good to hear different points of view, especially when you're even a "pariah" among the prevailing point of view in your country! But I didn't mean that the Euro is Germany's ingenious plan to take over the EU to suit their own goals, it wasn't in that sense that I criticized Hollande. But what happened during the Eurozone crisis was indeed a restricted group of better off countries, like Germany and the Benelux, imposing heavy austerity measures on countries that were suffering hard already. And the truth is that Hollande promised to end that and he completely failed and wrote a blank check for those countries to do as they wanted. Meanwhile, here comes Macron with some grandiose plans to reform the Eurozone into a more comprehensive structure that benefits the entire community of countries and Merkel is actually willing to discuss his proposals now. Despite not liking Macron in terms of domestic policy (and that has nothing to do with me anyway since I'm not French nor do I live in France) and thinking he is an arrogant prick, I like the ideas for the Euro and the EU very much and I am glad that the Eurozone countries are finally looking to change something to prevent such a crisis from happening again in the future.

  6. #266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrior View Post
    Despite not liking Macron in terms of domestic policy (and that has nothing to do with me anyway since I'm not French nor do I live in France) and thinking he is an arrogant prick, I like the ideas for the Euro and the EU very much and I am glad that the Eurozone countries are finally looking to change something to prevent such a crisis from happening again in the future.
    The point with Macron's proposed reforms is of course: "Who pays for this?"

    That makes some Germans a little bit nervous, since for instance the lion's share of his proposed "Eurozone budget" would come from Germany.

    Basically, there seem to be 3 options:

    1. Austerity forced upon Southern Europe: Causes small humanitarian crisis, makes Germany the boogeyman, questionable if that's feasible for years to come. Austerity was probably a factor why Italians and Greeks voted for parties that are commnoly referred to as "populist".

    2. More redistribution in the Eurozone: Basically what Macron wants and may be necessary to a certain degree. But will not be very popular among governments and voters in Northern Europe.

    3. Certain countries leave the Eurozone, if they can't reform or even redistributing money doesn't help. Your own country maybe a candidate. Returning back to a devalued escudo could make the Portugese economy more competetive.


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  7. #267

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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Black Hole View Post

    2. More redistribution in the Eurozone: Basically what Macron wants and may be necessary to a certain degree. But will not be very popular among governments and voters in Northern Europe.
    I think this point is what's most important in making the euro-currency work.

    Having the same coin is very useful when traveling in europe but for such thing to actually work in the long term Europe needs to work more like a single entity in some regards.
    Of course, as you say, this change would/will ruffle some feathers among the richest countries which feel like they're the only ones providing for the little ones. The rise of nationalistic feelings which seem to be in the air a little everywhere are facilitating this process.

  8. #268
    King of Little Sisters ~ Chrior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big Black Hole View Post
    The point with Macron's proposed reforms is of course: "Who pays for this?"

    That makes some Germans a little bit nervous, since for instance the lion's share of his proposed "Eurozone budget" would come from Germany.

    Basically, there seem to be 3 options:

    1. Austerity forced upon Southern Europe: Causes small humanitarian crisis, makes Germany the boogeyman, questionable if that's feasible for years to come. Austerity was probably a factor why Italians and Greeks voted for parties that are commnoly referred to as "populist".

    2. More redistribution in the Eurozone: Basically what Macron wants and may be necessary to a certain degree. But will not be very popular among governments and voters in Northern Europe.

    3. Certain countries leave the Eurozone, if they can't reform or even redistributing money doesn't help. Your own country maybe a candidate. Returning back to a devalued escudo could make the Portugese economy more competetive.
    Option 3 seems fine, as long as Germany leaves the euro. The German economy wouldn't suffer that much, and the rest of the Eurozone countries, which are much more homogenous between them, would still have a single currency stronger than if they each had their own national currencies. And the inflation could rise a bit to make their economies more competitive. Germany is what's holding the single currency back, but everyone knew it from the start. The whole construction of the Euro is deeply flawed, I have no idea how it was agreed to like this in the first place. Portugal leaving the Euro would be an absolute nightmare and suggesting that is ridiculous. Greece had a far-left government which was "minutes away" from leaving the Euro but they never did, because the country would become a third world country overnight, with a worthless currency, which would plunge almost everyone living there who had their savings in the banks into poverty. There is a historical reason for Germany to want a strong currency and be so against inflation, which you probably know (Weimar republic and all). So I understand that Germans have their own point of view. But if the Eurozone is to work, it has to behave like a cohesive group, like a single country. Does Germany not pay for their poorest regions, who perform worse economically? Then that's what should happen on a european level. If there had been a safeguard in place to prevent the poorest countries from plunging into massive debt, the whole gigantic crisis would not have happened in the first place. Did you see Americans panicking because a single state or county went bankrupt at any time? Then why should the EU panic because one of its smaller economies, representing like 1% of the GDP, went bankrupt? It's absurd. And it is feeding populists continuously and understandibly.

  9. #269

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    The Netherlands and Denmark finally passed a law to ban the niqab/burka from public spaces.
    It's a bit surprising. I wasn't expecting this from these two countries

  10. #270
    King of Little Sisters ~ Chrior's Avatar
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    Donald Trump today asked the President of the Portuguese Republic if Cristiano Ronaldo would ever run against him in an election; he answered that Portugal wasn't like the USA, lol At least he didn't invite that douche to visit Portugal. One less reason for me to go to Lisbon in protest, it would be a waste of money, but I'd do it if it was him.

  11. #271

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch View Post
    The Netherlands and Denmark finally passed a law to ban the niqab/burka from public spaces.
    It's a bit surprising. I wasn't expecting this from these two countries
    The Netherlands has been culture warring Muslims before it was cool and Denmark is basically European Australia.

  12. #272

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    Denmark is Scandinavian Alabama.

  13. #273

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    I'm suprised it wasn't already banned. The Danes have been aiming toward becoming the land least attractive to Arabs for quite a while now. But then again now everybody is playing hot potato with the immigrant issue so i guess they feel the need to amp up their crackdowns

  14. #274

    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    That's not what I meant.
    I meant that it surprises me how these two countries that have a tradition of being liberal would ban the burqa.

    The burqa was banned not long ago in Turkey's universities. But it doesn't mean that they hated muslims. I mean, it was a mistake to ban it in Turkey. But it still doesn't change that they did it and they're not conservatives/right-wing/authoritarian for having done so. Quite the opposite actually

    Millions of muslims are and will migrate in Europe from the Middle-East (and eventually elsewhere) in the years and decades to come. These muslims in general are not the most progressist and feminist people you'll meet, and that's fine, but they'll also bring a shitty version of Islam that hates women. The idea is to prevent this ideology to root in Europe, by banning (for instance) the burqa before it becomes a huge thing. Before it becomes hard to ban.
    One really has to be blinded by political correctness to think that millions of muslims coming from the Middle-East in Germany, France, Italy, England and Spain will only bring music, spicy food and new words in the language.

    I don't think we should approve something dangerous only because it's hiding behind "freedom of religion". We all agree that laws shouldn't forbid something if it's not dangerous, okay fine. But the disagreement comes from what is and isn't dangerous. The burqa goes along very bigoted and authoritarian ideas. It's banned like nazi salutes are forbidden. I'm not saying they're inter-changeable, but if I had to make a comparison with something that isn't harmful in itself, I'd do it with the nazi salute.
    There is also the argument that one should have a civic attitude and show their face in public

    I'm gonna bring up the French case again. But it's not just Sarkozy and Lepen who think that the burqa should be/remain banned from public spaces. Emmanuel Macron, Benoit Hamon and Mélenchon agree on that too. This is not islamophobic !



    P.S. It's the burqa that is banned, not the hijab. I'm saying that because people can get confused
    Last edited by Nilitch; June 30th, 2018 at 06:41 AM.

  15. #275

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    The liberties i associate with the Danes are mostly about drinking, smoking and fornicating.

  16. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azrvfsuits View Post
    Reported for being a scam
    Also, today is the day the EU removing freedom of the internet. I hope many of you Europans move to other none EU nations like America or Japan.
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  17. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfwood View Post
    The liberties i associate with the Danes are mostly about drinking, smoking and fornicating.
    That doesn't sound so bad.

  18. #278

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nitwit View Post
    Also, today is the day the EU removing freedom of the internet. I hope many of you Europans move to other none EU nations like America or Japan.
    If I happen to lack freedom, amerika is the last place I'd move to.

    Anyway, just stop reporting fake news please. I've seen this claim on a whole bunch of anglo-american discussions on internet. And I get it, you're mad as fuck because of Trump and the Brexit. Fine. Just get over it and stop comparing yourselves with your neighbors. You're gonna be okay

  19. #279
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    Lol I actually talked to some EU lawyers about it, who specialise in this subject, and no, the internet is not gonna lose its freedom, The ECJ have already made numerous decisions essentially constitutionalising freedoms (like memes), this article 13 changes nothing in legal practice, everyone's gonna be fine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nilitch
    You're the kind of person that can't make the difference between "facts" and "far-righty rambling" but somehow you think you can legit talk like this. You're the Ben Shapiro of this forum
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  20. #280
    I'm a bad boy! ;) Nitwit's Avatar
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    Default Re: European Politics Thread

    Well, I'm half European as my mother was born in Spain. I try to get my news from sites that update about the whole order. I just wasn't at the right sites that are current at the moment. Maybe you are right Nilitch. I must be going crazy lately. I need some sleep for tomorrow's another day.
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