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Thread: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

  1. #801
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kishido View Post
    Seriously I do not get how Law can still be alive and fight?

    Is it the power of Corazon love or what?

    First he was fucked up by Fujitora, later by DoFla beaten and shot to a pulp and now once again such heavy attack through his fucking torso. This of course mixed with stamina "weakness" cuz of the Ope Ope no mi

    If he still is able to fight... I really dunno... He is close to WB level of tanking

    PS
    I still do not get why DoFla just shot him in the arm instead of his head
    Since he just get owned everytime, I'm not sure it is that impressive.



  2. #802

    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    I make the notion that we wait and see. Wait and see what Fuji does at the end of the arc, what the outcome is. Can't get simpler than that. It's a weekly manga, and it's understandable that we must discuss it week by week, but as said, it's a weekly manga, not a movie, you ain't gonna know everything in one sitting.

  3. #803
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kishido View Post
    Seriously I do not get how Law can still be alive and fight?

    Is it the power of Corazon love or what?

    First he was fucked up by Fujitora, later by DoFla beaten and shot to a pulp and now once again such heavy attack through his fucking torso. This of course mixed with stamina "weakness" cuz of the Ope Ope no mi

    If he still is able to fight... I really dunno... He is close to WB level of tanking

    PS
    I still do not get why DoFla just shot him in the arm instead of his head

    .............. You mean how Zoro fought really hard in Thriller Bark , took Luffy's pain and went all out again when facing pacifista ? ....................... I thought that people taking shit load of damage was normal for One Piece but it seems like there are Too many dumbass in the fanbase nowadays .

  4. #804
    Discovered Stowaway Pinelark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth View Post
    Ah, the "I'm not going to contribute anything worthwhile but post how Darth is ruining the entire board by himself" group came out of the wilds again.

    Chance of any worthwhile discussion in now equal to zero. Might as well leave you to your own devices.
    Don't go yet, I wanted to discuss Fujitora with you now that the thread has finally wound down a bit. I know that we tend to disagree on his motivations/clarity, partially due to his vagueness, and partially because we disagree on how loyal to the Gorosei Akainu is, but I thought now things became fairly clear.

    It seems evident to me that those of us arguing Fujitora wanted to use Dressrosa as evidence against he Shichibukai system are wrong (including myself), while the motivation was there for Fujitora to use this tactic, it clashed with his "protect the people" stance, and our end argument was consistently "he's sacrificing these people for his greater goal", which while plausible, indeed had its holes as an argument.

    However, after reading the last chapter, I can't help but feel that Fujitora is finally making some sense. It would seem that his blind justice is, rather than being based on himself, based on the will of the people. As long as the people acted like they wanted Doflamingo in charge, Fujitora was going to give them what they wanted, once they changed their minds, it would seem he stopped his pursuit at that point. Even though it clashed with his personal convictions of wanting to destroy the Shichibukai, he was giving the people what the wanted first.

    That, to me, seems very plausible with both the motivation, character, and evidence to back it up. Thoughts?

  5. #805
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinelark View Post
    Don't go yet, I wanted to discuss Fujitora with you now that the thread has finally wound down a bit. I know that we tend to disagree on his motivations/clarity, partially due to his vagueness, and partially because we disagree on how loyal to the Gorosei Akainu is, but I thought now things became fairly clear.

    It seems evident to me that those of us arguing Fujitora wanted to use Dressrosa as evidence against he Shichibukai system are wrong (including myself), while the motivation was there for Fujitora to use this tactic, it clashed with his "protect the people" stance, and our end argument was consistently "he's sacrificing these people for his greater goal", which while plausible, indeed had its holes as an argument.

    However, after reading the last chapter, I can't help but feel that Fujitora is finally making some sense. It would seem that his blind justice is, rather than being based on himself, based on the will of the people. As long as the people acted like they wanted Doflamingo in charge, Fujitora was going to give them what they wanted, once they changed their minds, it would seem he stopped his pursuit at that point. Even though it clashed with his personal convictions of wanting to destroy the Shichibukai, he was giving the people what the wanted first.

    That, to me, seems very plausible with both the motivation, character, and evidence to back it up. Thoughts?
    Thoughts...

    Okay... allow me to say it clearly: even if we take will of the people into consideration, that still doesn not explain his sudden support for Luffy.

    Not to mention that it does reduces him to a pawn: his actions are never proactive, only reactive. Nevermind that the crowds were hardly in the position to make autonomous decisions to begin with.

    It feels as if the entire manga just went Meta, and said "We are going to let Luffy do it, cause he is protagonist."

    Honestly? I think Oda is setting us up. I honest to god think that Oda is setting us up for Luffy's defeat to come off as a shocking development. It would fit the pace the manga is going at, it would fit his themes, and it would be the most interesting development since... well, timeskip.

    I want to see Fujitora lose his bet, and see how it will develop from there.

  6. #806
    Discovered Stowaway Pinelark's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth View Post
    Thoughts...

    Okay... allow me to say it clearly: even if we take will of the people into consideration, that still doesn not explain his sudden support for Luffy.

    Not to mention that it does reduces him to a pawn: his actions are never proactive, only reactive. Nevermind that the crowds were hardly in the position to make autonomous decisions to begin with.

    It feels as if the entire manga just went Meta, and said "We are going to let Luffy do it, cause he is protagonist."

    Honestly? I think Oda is setting us up. I honest to god think that Oda is setting us up for Luffy's defeat to come off as a shocking development. It would fit the pace the manga is going at, it would fit his themes, and it would be the most interesting development since... well, timeskip.

    I want to see Fujitora lose his bet, and see how it will develop from there.
    I think supporting Luffy solves his issue of having to confront Doflamingo though. This I'm sure we'll disagree on, but the Gorosei won't take kindly to the Marines acting against Doflamingo, seemingly primarily due to the fact that Doflamingo could reveal he used to be a Celestial Dragon, and thus the "god-like" image of Celestial Dragons would be shattered for the world. For some reason, the Gorosei are dead set on defending the Celestial Dragons way of life. And while Akainu may personally despise pirates, he doesn't despise the gov't, he loves it, so he wouldn't take kindly to Fujitora attacking Doflamingo either, which leads to Fujitora not wanting to jeopardize his overarching goal by losing his position now.

    I agree with you that the crowds were hardly in the position, and while this may make Fujitora a bit... senile and odd in his thought process, it doesn't make it unbelievable.

    I believe Luffy could be defeated, but I don't believe it'd be the end of anything if that's what you're implying. It would likely be Luffy getting the treatment he got in Alabasta... because I just can't envision Doflamingo not getting defeated this arc. Now, let's say Luffy get's defeated here early on, and then he has to recover for a few chapters while all the other fights are resolved? I'd buy that.

  7. #807
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinelark View Post
    I think supporting Luffy solves his issue of having to confront Doflamingo though. This I'm sure we'll disagree on, but the Gorosei won't take kindly to the Marines acting against Doflamingo, seemingly primarily due to the fact that Doflamingo could reveal he used to be a Celestial Dragon, and thus the "god-like" image of Celestial Dragons would be shattered for the world. For some reason, the Gorosei are dead set on defending the Celestial Dragons way of life. And while Akainu may personally despise pirates, he doesn't despise the gov't, he loves it, so he wouldn't take kindly to Fujitora attacking Doflamingo either, which leads to Fujitora not wanting to jeopardize his overarching goal by losing his position now.
    I ask you this then: How is Luffy's victory going to matter, if that's the case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinelark View Post
    I believe Luffy could be defeated, but I don't believe it'd be the end of anything if that's what you're implying. It would likely be Luffy getting the treatment he got in Alabasta... because I just can't envision Doflamingo not getting defeated this arc. Now, let's say Luffy get's defeated here early on, and then he has to recover for a few chapters while all the other fights are resolved? I'd buy that.
    I do think he is going to get Alabasta treatment, but also that it's going to be acknowledged by Fuji that he did indeed bet on the wrong person.

    Now, we, with all our omnipresent knowledge and awareness of meta would that to be not true, but he does not.

  8. #808
    Moderator Aokiji freedom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth View Post
    Thoughts...

    Okay... allow me to say it clearly: even if we take will of the people into consideration, that still doesn not explain his sudden support for Luffy.

    Not to mention that it does reduces him to a pawn: his actions are never proactive, only reactive. Nevermind that the crowds were hardly in the position to make autonomous decisions to begin with.

    It feels as if the entire manga just went Meta, and said "We are going to let Luffy do it, cause he is protagonist."

    Honestly? I think Oda is setting us up. I honest to god think that Oda is setting us up for Luffy's defeat to come off as a shocking development. It would fit the pace the manga is going at, it would fit his themes, and it would be the most interesting development since... well, timeskip.

    I want to see Fujitora lose his bet, and see how it will develop from there.
    Is this sarcasm, cynicism, or trolling... I'll just be candid for a moment. I usually find your posts intriguing, and there is some validity to the points you make about the story set up. However, at the same time, you're reading a fictional story, and there are just some things you should let go.
    Fujitora decided to leave things to Luffy because he's been eavesdropping here and there and has learned that Luffy and his group are helping the citizens.
    Furthermore, he learned via Viola that the citizens don't trust the marines. And now the citizens are united and ready to fight against Dof if King Riku gives the signal.

    Reality Check: Yes, in a real world situation, there's no way any of this makes sense or is the right thing for a military officer to do. Perhaps there is some circumstance I'm unfamiliar with where this is the right course of action. But guess what, you're reading fiction. Try to enjoy the story for what it's worth. We had a full out war where only two characters died that we knew of. I was really hoping for some stats at the end of the war, but we didn't get any.

    Luffy's defeat?? Seriously!! Then what was the point of the SHs getting destroyed and separated on Sabaody, and the follow up 2 year training. Now when Luffy is faced with his first real challenge, he loses. Well, I'm glad you're not writing this story.
    Even in Bleach, Kubo wouldn't do this kind of backtracking with Ichigo
    WARNING (Explicit Dialog)!!

  9. #809
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom View Post
    Fujitora decided to leave things to Luffy because he's been eavesdropping here and there and has learned that Luffy and his group are helping the citizens.
    Furthermore, he learned via Viola that the citizens don't trust the marines. And now the citizens are united and ready to fight against Dof if King Riku gives the signal.
    Eh... what?

    Quote Originally Posted by freedom View Post
    Reality Check: Yes, in a real world situation, there's no way any of this makes sense or is the right thing for a military officer to do. Perhaps there is some circumstance I'm unfamiliar with where this is the right course of action. But guess what, you're reading fiction. Try to enjoy the story for what it's worth. We had a full out war where only two characters died that we knew of. I was really hoping for some stats at the end of the war, but we didn't get any.
    I do try to enjoy the story, but I simply cannot buy such complete passivity from character who has no reason to have it.

    And yes, I'm aware that this isn't the real world, but you can't simply justify everything by saying "It's fiction" and leaving it at that.


    Quote Originally Posted by freedom View Post
    Luffy's defeat?? Seriously!! Then what was the point of the SHs getting destroyed and separated on Sabaody, and the follow up 2 year training. Now when Luffy is faced with his first real challenge, he loses.
    Well, I'm glad you're not writing this story. Even in Bleach, Kubo wouldn't do this kind of backtracking with Ichigo
    The point was: To survive.

    If the point of the timeskip was "Luffy is beyond reach of enemies to beat", then that kills tension. I don't want that. I don't know what Oda wants, cause he is impossible to read.

  10. #810
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth View Post
    Thoughts...

    Okay... allow me to say it clearly: even if we take will of the people into consideration, that still doesn not explain his sudden support for Luffy.

    Not to mention that it does reduces him to a pawn: his actions are never proactive, only reactive. Nevermind that the crowds were hardly in the position to make autonomous decisions to begin with.

    It feels as if the entire manga just went Meta, and said "We are going to let Luffy do it, cause he is protagonist."

    Honestly? I think Oda is setting us up. I honest to god think that Oda is setting us up for Luffy's defeat to come off as a shocking development. It would fit the pace the manga is going at, it would fit his themes, and it would be the most interesting development since... well, timeskip.

    I want to see Fujitora lose his bet, and see how it will develop from there.
    Once again hoping Oda to deliver?

    For Fuji I suppose he decided that since a shichibukai is at fault the government and their system was at fault; therefore he refuse to play part in justifying a system which isn't working on his opinion. Him kicking Doflamingo's ass would pass the whole thing as a minor incident since the government would get proof they can deal with those things even if it means the citizens are being treat as meaningless collateral.So he decided to let others does the job. He got lucky enough to be given an excuses by Sabo.


    Still think that's a stupid way to act, but I think there's a certain logic to it.



  11. #811

    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth View Post
    Honestly? I think Oda is setting us up. I honest to god think that Oda is setting us up for Luffy's defeat to come off as a shocking development. It would fit the pace the manga is going at, it would fit his themes, and it would be the most interesting development since... well, timeskip.
    What pace? What themes?

    The whole "Luffy is not strong enough yet" angle has already been explored to the point of fatigue during the Whitebeard War Saga, which led to the timeskip development as a solution to make Luffy and his crew strong enough.

    Now, by making Luffy lose, Oda would pretty much send the point of the above development to waste. A development that you admit itself is interesting. He's not going to lose in his first major New World adventure.

    Heck, when you have other crewmates like Zoro having little problem against Doula's crewmates, having Luffy, the Captain, be the only one who loses doesn't make any sense. It would be like if Lucci was the only CP9 member who would lose while Kaku, Jabra, Kalifa, etc. all won their fights.

    Geez, no wonder you question Oda's ability to deliver. You want him to deliver pizza even though he works for a Chinese food restaurant.
    Last edited by King Cannon; September 15th, 2014 at 10:11 AM.

  12. #812
    Kick-Ass Finalis desa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    More of a stupid morale stand-up than a super plan to make the Shichibukai fall in my opinion.



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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by King Cannon View Post
    The whole "Luffy is not strong enough yet" angle has already been explored to the point of fatigue during the Whitebeard War Saga, which led to the timeskip development as a solution to make Luffy and his crew strong enough. He's not going to lose in his first major New World adventure.
    Because...?

    I'm sorry, but what do you consider a loss?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Cannon View Post
    Now, by making Luffy lose, Oda would pretty much send the point of the above development to waste. A development that you admit itself is interesting.
    I what?

    Making Luffy into problem solving gary stue that is incapable of losing is not an interesting development, in my mind.

  14. #814
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes


  15. #815

    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth View Post
    Because...?

    I'm sorry, but what do you consider a loss?



    I what?

    Making Luffy into problem solving gary stue that is incapable of losing is not an interesting development, in my mind.
    It's not that he is incapable of losing, but that it is too early for him to lose. Frankly, the fact that you don't understand this is baffling.

    Luffy, after two years of heavy training, enters the New World, and then gets defeated in his first major adventure there, even though he trained exactly to prevent that from happening. I can't believe you don't see a problem in that.

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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by desa View Post
    Once again hoping Oda to deliver?

    For Fuji I suppose he decided that since a shichibukai is at fault the government and their system was at fault; therefore he refuse to play part in justifying a system which isn't working on his opinion. Him kicking Doflamingo's ass would pass the whole thing as a minor incident since the government would get proof they can deal with those things even if it means the citizens are being treat as meaningless collateral.So he decided to let others does the job. He got lucky enough to be given an excuses by Sabo.


    Still think that's a stupid way to act, but I think there's a certain logic to it.
    No there is not. He is placing himself in the situation where no matter what, he is going to look like a incompetent idiot.

    What do Shichibukai get from the goverment: Protection from Marines and other goverment forces. The only way WG is going to hurt them when revoking their statuses is taking away that protection.

    Now, why would they do that when every piece of empirical evidence shows them their forces are incapable of dealing with said Shichibukai, even if they were to dissolve them?

    Because let's be honest, this is the biggest military operation WG has done since War, and Fujitora singlehandedly turned into complete failure thus far. That is a massive shot against credibility of both Marines as a whole and Fujitora in particular.

  17. #817

    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Kishido View Post
    Seriously I do not get how Law can still be alive and fight?

    Is it the power of Corazon love or what?

    First he was fucked up by Fujitora, later by DoFla beaten and shot to a pulp and now once again such heavy attack through his fucking torso. This of course mixed with stamina "weakness" cuz of the Ope Ope no mi

    If he still is able to fight... I really dunno... He is close to WB level of tanking
    You of all people should know the secret behind Law's toughness. Law ate Sanji's food, twice.
    There is also the theory about his vital organs being stored somewhere.

  18. #818
    Moderator Aokiji freedom's Avatar
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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth View Post
    The point was: To survive.

    If the point of the timeskip was "Luffy is beyond reach of enemies to beat", then that kills tension. I don't want that. I don't know what Oda wants, cause he is impossible to read.
    Well, I guess we're reading a different story. The point of the timeskip and training was so the SHs could be ready for the New World. Look it up buddy!

    I'll give you your Fujitora comment since this is what all this nonsense stems from anyway. But just because Oda isn't using Fujitora the way you see fit, doesn't mean you need to underestimate Luffy's abilities or scream bad writing because Luffy is about to defeat some character you deem top-tier and outside of his league.
    WARNING (Explicit Dialog)!!

  19. #819

    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth View Post
    I do think he is going to get Alabasta treatment, but also that it's going to be acknowledged by Fuji that he did indeed bet on the wrong person.
    After a whole chapter dedicated to calling Luffy a "Trump Card", I don't really see Fujitora betting wrong here.

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    Default Re: Chapter 760: The Same Stakes

    Quote Originally Posted by King Cannon View Post
    It's not that he is incapable of losing, but that it is too early for him to lose. Frankly, the fact that you don't understand this is baffling.

    Luffy, after two years of heavy training, enters the New World, and then gets defeated in his first major adventure there, even though he trained exactly to prevent that from happening. I can't believe you don't see a problem in that.
    So the only pirates that matters are Yonkou now?

    Luffy learned the basics of Haki in year and half, and then trained in it for another half year. That, in you opinion, makes him equal to everyone except Yonkou and Admirals?

    This is not Hody Jones we are talking about here, it's Doflamingo. The highest pre-timeskip bounty among Shichibukai. A New World veteran.

    Then I suppose we are to consider him someone like Wapol of the New World?

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